Hello.
This blog that I love very much is now an ex-blog... sort-of... it continues over at revdlesley.net. Please do come and join the conversation there.
Lesley x

Tuesday, 11 May 2010

Spong's Theism


I read a book by Spong a little while ago and some of the ideas and concepts have stayed with me. The book was called 'Why Christianity must Change or Die':


In it Spong plots the history of religion. He considers that religion came into being when humans evolved to a level of self-consciousness that caused them trauma. Animals are not aware of the lack of control they have over whether they live or die, or whether they suffer terribly. They don't worry about meaninglessness in life. Spong suggests that faced with these psychological traumas, humans created gods to give them the feeling of being more in control. Specifically, they needed fertility goddesses, for they realised that if their harvests failed they could starve. He suggests that the first gods were female, as it was the fertility they sought and they didn't understand how reproduction occurred.

However, once they had the concept of the sperm being vital and the false belief that the woman was merely a vessel in which the sperm grew into a baby, then the male gods came into being. As the rain falls on the earth from the sky, so the male god was in the sky. Spong believes that the people sought to control their destinies by sacrificing animals or people to placate or please their god, and to give a sense of reassurance that their harvests may bear fruit.

This outpouring of belief in gods was evident in every culture. Dogmas were formed, heretics excluded and the religions were ones of conformity and fear. Spong believes that we need to rise above these religions, to face squarely our lack of control and possible meaningless. He believes we need to become atheists.

However, Spong believes in a Living God, entirely separate from these superstitions, and encourages us to relate to the Living God, finding a faith not based on fear, not based on childish dependence, but based on love. He suggests that all religions have theism running through them, and that we must work to rid ourselves of the theist elements of our faith. He then goes into some detail about where he sees theism in the Christian Scriptures. I guess an example would be misogyny, there are misogynous elements to the scriptures which he would see as part of theism, but also acts of equality by Jesus that Spong would see as part of the faith in a Living God.

Obviously, this is all very controversial and difficult. But I broadly agree with him. I am trying to put to death in  me superstitious belief, the notion of an angry God that needs placating, the draw to conformity and dogma that is written in stone and unquestionable. I do think these things are signs of a sick religion, and not signs of a living faith in a loving God.
Share This:

31 comments:

The Grumpy Cleric said...

I understand your friendship with Ron even better now - his work is done.

Lesley Fellows said...

:) Spong is a liberal theologian, not an atheist (he is an a-Theist but believes in the Living God). I think Ron would struggle with Spong just as much as he would with you and I.

Ron Murphy said...

I most certainly would. In what possible way is believing in an angry God theism and believing in loving God not theism, and if it's not theism and not atheism what is it? And in what way is one superstitious and the other not? The question remains, what is this God if he's not a fictional character of self-consciousness that caused trauma, a God made in man's image in man's head? The trauma goes on.

So don't worry Grumpy, Snow White is still safe from the wicked queen and is yet to eat the apple from the tree of atheistic knowledge. Pardon the mixed metaphor, but I think it's apt. :)

Ron Murphy said...

And it's nice to be seen as a friend of the warmest theist? deist? agnostic? person of faith I've debated with. If only more Christians were as congenial I might eventually figure this stuff out. So many strut around with their faith stuck so far up their jacksy that it's hard to see any sense in it at all. :)

Lesley Fellows said...

To answer your question Ron, I think the point is that there is and has been a lot of superstition based on fear.

Spong wants to separate out superstition from living faith. He doesn't want to see his faith as the same as someone who worships a tree and sacrifices a virgin to the sea in order to ensure a harvest. This theism makes Spong sick. It makes atheists sick too of course, and causes some to want to drive out all superstition and all belief in God.

Spong believes that some beliefs are sick and have their root in fear whereas some beliefs are healthy and are initiated by a loving God.

The problem is of course that within me I find superstition and so being a Christian clearly does not stop me doing the equivalent of worshipping trees and sacrificing virgins. Spong wants Christians to take a good honest look at what they are doing and believing.

To me Theism has become my word for crap religion.

Ron Murphy said...

I'll do my best not to call you a theist. So, that just leaves me to figure out what this living God is.

Is he an abstract concept?

Is he an imaginary friend?

Does he actually exist in any sense other than being made up in the mind of the believer?

In what sense does he exist, as an agent that interacts with us?

These are questions open to anyone who can give me a clue.

Lesley Fellows said...

Call me what you like :)

Ok, I'm sure you are sick of me answering these questions am I would like to know what others think so I have asked a couple of fellow bloggers to contribute - let's see if they do.

Suem said...

It is a while since I read Spong!

I read him about eight years ago, at the time I was a member of PCN ( the progressive Christian Network) and we covered Spong as part of a reading group. The whole group were very enthusiastic about Spong, but, although I found his ideas "interesting", he didn't really convince me, nor did his thoughts or what he was saying about God really accord with mine.

I can't really remember in detail what I read now, but if it is true that Spong says we have to get rid of our "theist" ideas in order to discover the "living God" - I do agree with Ron that that is a bit of a contradiction in terms!

Perhaps Spong is saying that we create God in our image ( so a punitive hateful culture will "create a punitive God etc) and that we need to try to divest ourselves of our image of God of our preconceptions in order to discover what he/ she / it actually is.

I can see that it could be argued that this is impossible. We always approach our understanding of the divine through our preconceptions and arguably Spong does this as much as anyone?

Suem said...

For what it is worth, I am a theist
in that I believe in a deity and believe I have a personal relationship with him/ her/ it.

I have no idea what Spong would say in answer to Ron's question, "Does he actually exist in any sense other than being made up in the mind of the believer?"

My answer would be that I believe he does.

Lesley Fellows said...

I am with you Sue, I believe I have a personal relationship with the Living God. I think Ron wanted us to answer the questions that he posed rather than Spong, and he already knows my answers - think perhaps another person my elucidate better than me!

Red said...

Hi all

Lesley asked me to have a look at Rons question too. Reply fairly lengthy so sorry for clogging up your comments box Lesley!
Hi Ron, how are you? You know you seem to ask a lot of questions about faith for one who doesn’t believe, which is great - I think a lot of people who declare themselves atheists do so because they are too lazy to look into Christianity or don’t want to try and understand it - at least you are an informed atheist :)

Anyway I am not sure that I can answer your questions in a way that will give you the answers you want. From what we’ve discussed previously and from what I’ve read on your blog it seems that you want THE answer, the ultimate proof of God in order for you to believe, but that isn’t how faith works. If there was ultimate proof we would all believe and there would be no choice. That then makes God the ‘ruler’ (as in like a political ruler) of the universe. You can chose to obey him or you chose to disobey, which then means he has to invoke punishments on those who go against him. But he isn’t like that – he is a gentleman – he gives us a choice, in love, to believe or not to. So I think whatever I answer will not be satisfactory to you but here goes….

Is he an abstract concept?
Not in my opinion. I think that many people still hold to the traditional ‘God is an old man with a flowing beard in the clouds’ kind of image. Whilst this may be helpful to some in relating to him, I actually think it is particularly unhelpful to the majority of people. In reality it doesn’t matter what he looks like or where he is, but that he IS. (as in ‘I am’). If we spend too much time trying to understand Him, it is just going to send us insane. By the very nature of the fact (you may dispute) that He is divine, we cannot hope to understand entirely what he is or isn’t.
I personally do like to think of him in a human-like form but not with features so that I could describe it. The form of the trinity too adds complication to pinning down what/who God is as the very nature of the trinity means that he has to be 3 separate things.

Is he an imaginary friend?
I would imagine to a non-believer this is exactly what it would seem like – you have someone who you talk to daily (or not as the case may be..) who no one can see, who no one can hear (in relation to your own conversation with Him) and you believe He is communicating with you. Yeah, sounds totally nuts I know :)

Does he actually exist in any sense other than being made up in the mind of the believer?
I believe so. I do believe in an all powerful Living God, who I may not be able to define in terms of appearance or whereabouts, but is someone who I have a relationship with.

In what sense does he exist, as an agent that interacts with us?

As I said, I don’t think it’s possible to describe his existence but I do think he can interact with us. I’m sure I wrote about some of this in our previous discussion, but through prayer, through others, through events that happen, through the bible. It is a case of one being open to it, being open to see when he is communicating with us. I mean, as an example: imagine there’s a guy in your office, who you don’t talk to, you don’t even notice he’s there, even though he’s there every day. Would you expect him to talk to you, to engage you in conversation if you don’t even acknowledge him? If however one day you said Hi, or asked him how he’s doing, he’ll probably say hi back.. Who knows after a few days of saying ‘hi’ you might have a short conversation, then you might get to know each other, hey you might even go for a beer… do you see where I’m going with this?
Not that I expect God likes beer – probably more of a G&T type…:)

Does any of this help?

BTW –love your line about Christians and their Jacksys -
Sadly many are stuck in the dogma & rhetoric that Spong rejects, which frankly gives all Christians a bad name.

Lesley Fellows said...

Red, I agree with everything you say EXCEPT I think God prefers Guinness.

Red said...

ok I concede that point :)

The Grumpy Cleric said...

Lesley: I have read Spong and I must admit I agree with him about God being moulded into the shape of believers' expectations.
But the A-theism/Atheism distintinction is tripe. I prefer atheists/humanists who are honest about what they believe.

Ron: you know me so well! I skip around the place like a giddy schoolgirl.I'm so naive! ...Yeah absolutely ..... yeah the Tory party wants P.R. ....

Ron, if Lesley is Snow White ....I'm Grumpy. Which is bad news for Lesley as:

a). She has to live with me.
b). I'm 6'2 & to be to scale she must be about 10 foot tall.

Overall, I prefer "Honest to God" to Spong.

Make mine a Guinness too, if anyone is ordering.

Ron Murphy said...

Hi Red,

Thanks for responding.

"I am not sure that I can answer your questions in a way that will give you the answers you want." - That's okay, I don't want an answer I want, I want to understand what your answer is.

"it seems that you want THE answer, the ultimate proof of God in order for you to believe" - Not at all. I don't think there can be a ultimate proof. Sufficient evidence would do. Failing that, I'd be happy to really understand what it is that a theist thinks is God if he doesn't quite exist and yet is there to have a relationship with.

"but that he IS. (as in 'I am')" - They're not similar, surely? You IS, I can understand. But God IS? It's this tricky IS that I'm after. It's like an IS that ISN'T.

"By the very nature of the fact (you may dispute) that He is divine, we cannot hope to understand entirely what he is or isn’t." - But how do you know he is divine in the first place? There is a circular reference here: he is divine, so we cannot understand what he is or isn't - then how do you know he is divine in the first place? Where does the first knowledge come from, other than the self-sustaining tradition of the particular religion, of the self-injection of the idea? This is something the human mind is capable of - convincing oneself that the circularity makes sense. This could be because it appears to solve the cognitive dissonance that exists in holding the belief in God and yet not having any evidence or any other reason to do so other than faith.

"The form of the trinity too adds complication to pinning down what/who God is as the very nature of the trinity means that he has to be 3 separate things." - Being able to imagine the unimaginable is a human trait that may well be the source of human creativity. We are capable of sustaining a paradox, even though we can't solve it. Take, for example, Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel. But that doesn't mean it's at all real. I understand that the experience of thinking and believing it is real - you have that particular experience, that feeling. But that's not the same as it actually being real.

Are you as convinced of God as the subject of this is of her experience: Olaf Blank? Does this type of evidence challenge your faith at all, knowing what the human mind can do? How can you be certain that your conviction isn't of the same degree and as similarly mistaken as this subjects? What convinces you?

John said...

I like the way Peter Rollins refers to Christians as true atheists...

Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M65JTRhObV4

Lesley Fellows said...

Thanks John - I will post that today - I also love Pete Rollins

Lesley Fellows said...

Hi Ron,

I won't say much because you and I have gone round these things a couple of times.. but just two observations.

The first is that you say we make God in our image - the nicest traits of humanity and then alacabam and there is God..

But in this discussion the Trinity is not in our image, and what would possess us to do that?

And secondly we keep saying that God is beyond us and indescribable, full of paradox, if we had made God up surely that would not be true either.

Feels like you want to argue this one from any side that furthers the argument that God ISN'T?

The second is that the Olaf Blank thing doesn't come anywhere near shaking my faith because if you bring me a certain scent I will remember the last time I smelled it, if you stimulate my brain with electrodes I will recall memories etc. We know this about the brain. The thing about faith is it is a powerful transformation, life changing relationship, there is a sense of a person, not a shadowy figure, a nuanced person, with a personality, someone I haven't met before, which characteristics of love, purity, freedom that I couldn't in my wildest dreams have imagined. Furthermore, I didn't get told that this is what faith is - it happened - I accepted that God was there - said Hi and was amazed... I thought it was just me but then I found that others knew the same person too..

Lesley Fellows said...

Hi Derek,

I was expecting you to be offended, so this is a very gracious response, thank-you.

I am sure living with you isn't that bad, we all have our wrinkles. And I might live with being 10 feet tall if I was the fairest of them all to compensate. Sadly, I think I need a different mirror.

I don't agree with very much of Spong either - but the bit in the post I like very much. Reading Holloway at the moment..

Perhaps these discussions would be better down the pub with pints of Guinness all round.

Ron Murphy said...

"But in this discussion the Trinity is not in our image, and what would possess us to do that?" - The creativity of the early Christians had to explain the divinity of Jesus, and the trinity is really hard to explain. Now it's part of the story it has to be passed off as part of the mystery because it has no rational explanation - cognitive dissonance at work. The very fact that believers recognise the mystery is enough to recognise the explanation is suspect. The mystery is cause for inquiry, not a satisfactory conclusion.

"And secondly we keep saying that God is beyond us and indescribable, full of paradox, if we had made God up surely that would not be true either." - Humans have always looked for external agency to explain strange or traumatic events. Early gods were fickle and human like, but the many flaws and the different god stories weren't consistent with what could be observed. Many theists of the past have rationalised this away until the only explanation can be an unknowable single God. The dichotomy is on the theist side in that theists make claims that this God is good, loves them, etc., and yet they know nothing about him because he is incomprehensible. So the only rationalisation of this is that he lets us know only what he decides to communicate to us (e.g. Augustine), which is very convenient - claims can be made without the need for them to be substantiated.

"Feels like you want to argue this one from any side that furthers the argument that God ISN'T?" - I'm not trying to show he ISN'T, I'm merely trying to show that there is no evidence that he IS, and most of the experiences believers have can be explained by natural causes, more so now than once was the case.

The importance of the Olaf Blank case was not the specifics of what the subject experienced, the figure being shadowy, but the conviction with which she could feel it to be real despite intellectually knowing it to be false. I accept faith is a powerful transformation - I'm not disputing the effect it has on the believer - there will be real physiological brain changes. What I'm saying is that this effect can be explained simply by the possibility that the brain is changed by natural internal and external experienced means - not only is there no evidence for God, but he isn't needed to explain the experience.

"I thought it was just me but then I found that others knew the same person too" - They are humans too, with human brains. You live in a culture that is mainly Christian. It's no surprise you became a Christian and found like minded people. I'm an atheist, but I'm reminded of something Ann Widdecombe said at the end of her BBC History of the Bible programme, something like, believe in it or not, your life will have been touched by the Bible. If you'd been raised in the Muslim world and had a similar background and a brain that switches on it's faith, then you'd have become a Muslim. It's arbitrary. The God may be similar, because there's a history of theological knowledge that stretches back to the Greeks that has come through Muslim and Christian traditions. If someone who is a Christian becomes a Muslim, what's happening there? Has there switch suddenly made Jesus Christ become a mortal prophet rather than son of God? It has for him, but what does that say of your conviction if someone similar can be changed so much?

Ron Murphy said...

Am I looking for anything that confirms my case, no matter how inconsistent? I really think I'm being consistent in what I'm arguing. I see the paradox being within the maintenance of faith, the lack of all evidence except internal feelings of believers, which can be explained by known psychological and neurological effects. But to emphasise the contingency of what I'm explaining, this is all based on what I see as good evidence on one side and the lack of it on the other. I'm not claiming access to truth. I'm merely looking at the problem with all we have available. I am genuinely not simply wanting to win the argument, I just want to know how all these natural explanations don't convince. By all means object to the natural explanations I've offered with other evidence that shows any of it to be wrong - certainly some of the examples I offer remain controversial within the particular sciences, and I don't know enough about fields that are not my own to be assured of being correct. Correct me by all means. Show me any evidence I've missed.

But I really think that 'faith' is an invention, another rationalisation, that conveniently allows claims to be made without being substantiated. We wouldn't accept this as a method of knowing in any other field of human knowledge - we'd only go so far as saying we don't know, not that we have faith.

Lesley Fellows said...

"The creativity of the early Christians had to explain the divinity of Jesus, and the trinity is really hard to explain."

Why did the early Christians want a divine Jesus?

IF there is a God who created us then it must be perfectly reasonable that God is beyond our understanding. Surely you must concede that?

"I'm merely trying to show that there is no evidence that he IS, and most of the experiences believers have can be explained by natural causes, more so now than once was the case."

Yeah, that doesn't seem to be very convincing though to those who believe they have a personal relationship with God. Presumably, we aren't all completely gullible and have noticed that our minds play tricks on us and still have reason to believe our experiences are real.

"If someone who is a Christian becomes a Muslim, what's happening there? Has there switch suddenly made Jesus Christ become a mortal prophet rather than son of God? It has for him, but what does that say of your conviction if someone similar can be changed so much?"

I don't know.. I haven't met any yet and I would be interested to see. But I was a convinced atheist and became a Christian, so what does that say of your conviction that it is all psychological?

Lesley Fellows said...

Am I looking for anything that confirms my case, no matter how inconsistent? I really think I'm being consistent in what I'm arguing. I see the paradox being within the maintenance of faith, the lack of all evidence except internal feelings of believers, which can be explained by known psychological and neurological effects. But to emphasise the contingency of what I'm explaining, this is all based on what I see as good evidence on one side and the lack of it on the other. I'm not claiming access to truth. I'm merely looking at the problem with all we have available. I am genuinely not simply wanting to win the argument, I just want to know how all these natural explanations don't convince. By all means object to the natural explanations I've offered with other evidence that shows any of it to be wrong - certainly some of the examples I offer remain controversial within the particular sciences, and I don't know enough about fields that are not my own to be assured of being correct. Correct me by all means. Show me any evidence I've missed.

But I really think that 'faith' is an invention, another rationalisation, that conveniently allows claims to be made without being substantiated.

Ok.. lets take your hypothesis - why would someone invent faith? Anyway I think we are saying we do experience the Holy Spirit, we just don't know a load of other stuff.

Red said...

Do you know what, Ron, I am gonna pray for you, to have your eyes opened, to get 'zapped' by the Holy Spirit, because really, that is the only way you are going to understand what faith is to those who believe. You need to become one in order to understand. (and please take this in the spirit it is offered, it's not a dig :) ). I have seen so many of your questions answered in so many ways and yet you still want more. But you cannot have the proof you seek in the form you desire. I believe that you can't have what you are seeking and questioning without receiving Jesus into your life in order to know it for yourself. So I'm going to pray for you. Bless you...
red
x

Ron Murphy said...

Hi Red,

Thanks for your prayers, but I suspect they won't work: Harvard prayer experiment.

You might get a result from me if I wear the God Helmet.

The only zapping that would work is a blow to the head, as that also appears to be a way to stimulate the parts of the brain that form religious beliefs.

Remember, I'm not denying you believe. I get now why you believe in spite of evidence that explains your belief in natural terms. It's just what your brain is doing, and no amount of reasoning is going to change that.

But that doesn't make God real in any other sense - which leaves us with you believing in God and me not.

There is the possibility that it's my brain that isn't working, not seeing a God that's really there. But would a smack on the head that causes religious belief be considered a legitimate way of fixing my brain to make it believe. Blows to the head are usually damaging not repairing.

There is no corroborating natural evidence for God - it's only in the brain of the individual believer, an intrasubjective experience. There are many examples of intrasubjective experiences; many are straight forward, like optical illusions. Some are known to be caused by brain damage or psychological disorders that match the criteria of religious belief. So we have plenty of examples of intrasubjective experiences that even religious believers accept are not real.

"You need to become one in order to understand." - Yes, I appreciate that now.

"I have seen so many of your questions answered in so many ways and yet you still want more." - The answers haven't been satisfactory for many reasons. Mostly, they are anecdotal. I really can't stress enough how weak that is as evidence.

Example: In the 80's there were many public cases of breast implants gone wrong (put aside your moral judgement) and which were claimed to cause arthritic conditions. Doctors appeared on US TV to agree with their patients that the implants were the cause. Many legal cases ensued - and the manufacturers went bust. Here were professional doctors giving evidence of each case. But later proper research in double blind trials showed no greater link between breast implants and the conditions than chance.

Anecdotal evidence simply isn't good enough, no matter how convinced you are. And all the affirmations don't help.

But let's let that pass for now.

The situation is that the intellectual case for belief in God based on evidence is poor. But I have to accept the evidence that you really do believe and that reasoning will not make any difference.

But that still leaves a lot more to consider.

Red said...

ok, so we agree to disagree :)
x

Ron Murphy said...

On this one point so far:

You believe you communicate with God.

I don't think you do; but I have to accept the conviction with which you do is beyond reasoning with, based on normal forms of evidence.

So on that we will have to agree to disagree and move on.

I'll get back to the other points as soon as I can.

Ron Murphy said...

Hi Lesley,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

"Why did the early Christians want a divine Jesus?" - I don't know. Why did they? To explain away some of the interpretations of the Gospels? To devise a consistent doctrine out of the various notions that came before by defining the trinity in which Jesus is divine? What do we know about what Jesus actually thought other than what is told to us - hearsay? What do we actually know about the resurrection/ascension - this is a pretty serious challenge to physical laws that appear to be so reliable - still hearsay? And all teased out of the Bible?

The details aren't particularly important, since Muslims are similarly convinced that the angel Gabriel conveyed the word of God to Mohammed - more hearsay. In the face of all these claims and serious beliefs that appear to be contradictory, fly in the face of all our other experience, and the fact that the experiences are so similar to some naturally caused experiences, then it's more reasonable to be at least sceptical about the claims, and without further evidence they aren't very convincing - except to those that actually have religious experiences and see all this as fitting together.

"IF there is a God who created us then it must be perfectly reasonable that God is beyond our understanding. Surely you must concede that?" - Yes of course. But then I must concede the reasonableness of Russell's teapot. When philosophers come up with similar examples, of fairies, teapots and flying spaghetti monsters it's not to suggest they are real, it's to point out the frailty of religious argument.

"Presumably, we aren't all completely gullible and have noticed that our minds play tricks on us and still have reason to believe our experiences are real." - You don't have to be gullible in order to believe something for which there is no evidence. Blank's subject wasn't gullible, she knew the apparition wasn't there, but was still convinced - in her case the cognitive dissonance was not overcome by affirmed faith and was only short lived.

"But I was a convinced atheist and became a Christian, so what does that say of your conviction that it is all psychological?" - Same possibility - your conviction that you communicate with God is driven by your new experience of God, which overrides your original rational objections; and this applies whether God actually exists or not - your belief in God seems to be independent of there actually being a God.

I get that you believe, and that for you it is real. I've only come to understand the persuasiveness of your belief since I've discussed the Olaf Blank data with you. I know your actual belief isn't the same as his subject's, but the conviction of the belief is.

But what I don't get is the seeming easy dismissal of objections. If I have a conception of something in physics, such as that the sun goes round the earth, and a reasoned explanation shows how this illusion can be convincing, but incorrect, I change my opinion. Given all the evidence that things aren't always as our minds portrait them, that their are natural explanations for your act of believing, I don't see how you can hold to your particular belief so strongly.

Lesley said...

Hi Ron,

Al this seems very reasonable and reasoned. I don't feel I have much to add to any of it.. I don't know whether there is anything in particular you wish me to speak to.

The most interesting part for me is your final sentence. I suppose I find it difficult to get why I believe in it so strongly, except, I suppose, perhaps it is true, and perhaps it has turned my life around for the better, and perhaps it gives me a richness that I lacked before. Is it worth discussing this any further, or have we done it all before?

Ron Murphy said...

Why do I believe in it? Because it's true? How do I know it's true? Because I believe it so convincingly?

"perhaps it has turned my life around for the better"

Perhaps you have turned your life around yourself, using God as a focal point. That's reasonable. Sometimes it helps to focus on something in order to aid meditation - e.g. a candle. There's no magic in the candle, it's just an aid. Improving ones life more generally isn't that simple, since it's a complex interaction with oneself and other people, and continues day after day, beyond a session of meditation. So I can understand why a candle, or a good luck charm, won't do it for some. They want something more attuned to what they are trying to do. Constantly being aware of the ideals of a man, Jesus, or a fictional being, God, could act as a psychological focus to this end, particularly if those ideals match what you want to achieve.

But this doesn't mean the actual Jesus lived up to the ideal created of him, or that God exists.

"perhaps it gives me a richness that I lacked before."

Theology can certainly be rich in ideas, that's obvious. Intertwining ones life in a theology could then take on a richness that seems more interesting to some than the mundane yet also obvious idea that we are animals that come into existence from the accumulation of atoms and somehow become self-aware. Personally I find plenty of richness in all that science unfolds, let alone the richness in interaction with other humans, and other animals, and other life, and the inanimate world. And I'm sure you wouldn't dispute that there are plenty of people with very rich and fulfilling lives that don't need God. There can be sufficient without inventing beings and wanting them to actually exist.

What is it that adds richness that can't be found in other ways? Or, why does God have to be real in order to add the richness?

Lesley said...

I understand that. I am aware that may be true. I simply don't believe it because of the way life feels to me. But you say it very kindly and I know I may be wrong. Christians have a sense of God with them.. the Holy Spirit... and I know that you put that down to a 'God Module' being suddenly activated on conversion. Perhaps so. That feels quite unlikely too, to me.

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...